Solving Health and Wellness Marketing Overwhelm with Angela Frank

[00:00:00] Welcome to profits through podcasting, where we help health focused entrepreneurs generate leads and revenue for their businesses through podcasting. I’m your host, Joel Oliver’s CEO of east coast studio. If you’re looking to grow your online health and wellness business, you know, marketing is needed, but you’re overwhelmed and frustrated by the different options.

Today’s conversation is absolutely for you. Our guest is Angela Frank. She is a fractional CMO with a decade long track record of generating multi-million dollar marketing revenue for health and wellness brands. And that may sound a little big for smaller entrepreneurs like us, but Angela is a wealth of knowledge.

In fact, she wrote a book called your marketing ecosystem. That is a complete guide for business owners, just like us who are frustrated with marketing and want a straightforward and profitable marketing strategy. So we discussed podcasting as a marketing tool, but podcasting alone isn’t enough.

And she explains what else you should be doing as [00:01:00] well as how to think about and juggle multiple avenues of marketing. We’ll also learn from Angela, how to ensure your website is on point, how to track various metrics and why that is so important. Plus how long to wait before deciding that things aren’t working with your marketing.

Hello, Angela. Welcome in.

Hey, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

So we’re going to learn from you and your expertise when it comes to marketing for health and wellness businesses. But I want to chat about your podcast a little bit just to start off because we are speaking with podcasters who want to leverage podcasting to grow their business. So your podcast is called The Growth Pod.

Uh, it’s relatively new. It was just this year you launched it, right?

Yeah, we launched it in January this year.

Got it. So you’re, you’re nearing 50 episodes, which is great. Very consistent there. That’s what we want to see with podcasting. So if you could think back to when you did that launch, I mean, would already been quite successful at that point with your business.

So. Maybe it wasn’t fully for marketing purposes, but what were some of the [00:02:00] reasons and goals you had in your head when it came to starting that podcast?

Yeah. So something that I’m incredibly passionate about is giving other entrepreneurs the tools that they need to grow their business in a really no nonsense way. This is something that’s always been really integral to my career and it’s taken different forms over time. And like you mentioned, I did have a consulting practice for about a year at that point.

I’m going to go to some of our other blogs and talk about how internet is helping a lot of our clients in terms of communicating their current needs and So if you want to know how to get access to this podcast, I’ll put a link in the description as well, just so you know where to go to get access to it.

And then I will leave it up to you, um, if you have any questions, comments or Expertise where I try to share, why should we care about learning about [00:03:00] this? And then how can we start implementing it in our business and what are some key pitfalls to avoid? And then I also do my own solo episodes, just sharing things that I’ve been seeing in marketing and just growth marketing in general, to try and help the people who are listening to the podcast really get the tools that they need to grow.

Okay. So with that in mind, now let’s start moving into the conversation surrounding marketing and everything we’re going to touch on today. But tell us a bit about your business that you’re running right now.

What are you doing? Who is your ideal client?

I am a marketing consultant, and I provide marketing strategy for health and wellness businesses. A lot of people consider this fractional chief marketing officer type services, so that might be more understandable. But what I do is I come in, I assess. A strategy that a business has in place, and I helped make it more profitable and more designed for growth.

And so I’ve worked with all sorts of different brands from about a million dollars a year in revenue all the way [00:04:00] up to over 300 million dollars a year. and so I’ve really seen what works, through all that huge, band and income and what different companies need to do to scale at different levels.

Got it. Yeah, that’s exciting. That’s one of the things, and I was doing some research on you, you know, us entrepreneurs out here that are struggling, trying to understand marketing and what to do someone like yourself with a track record of generating millions, you know, through marketing, like, okay, Angela has it figured out, so we need to talk to someone like this to really get that idea.

And so through your expertise that led you to write the book, your marketing ecosystem, which is for business owners who are, like we’re saying frustrated with marketing. They want a straightforward and profitable strategy. Like what do I do here? I don’t really want to spend time learning the ins and outs or what the best thing to do is.

It’s like, someone just tell me what to do and I’ll do it. So let’s get into that now with health and wellness business owners who are feeling this way. I know you wrote a whole book on it, but can we get like a summary version here of how you go [00:05:00] about this? What is it that you recommend? To these entrepreneurs when it comes to their marketing strategy.

Yeah. So the reason why the book is called your marketing ecosystem is because I really have found a lot of success helping business owners frame their marketing strategy as this marketing ecosystem. When you think of it as something that’s a little bit more, you know, alive at ebbs and flows and evolves over time, it really creates a nice framework to think about your marketing strategy.

And so a marketing ecosystem. The TLDR, the too long, didn’t read on that is just how you’re going to connect all of your marketing together. So it’s performing at a greater performance than the sum of all of its parts. A lot of people here, they’re supposed to be launching email marketing. So they go into that and then they say, Oh, I’m going to run paid ads.

And so now they do that. And it ends up being that everything sort of gets, Yes. Launched in like this own individual silo in your marketing and nothing’s really connected or working together. And [00:06:00] so the way that I approach marketing is by connecting all of those things together, making sure that everything is super cohesive.

And when you do that, you actually end up spending a lot less on your marketing, but you make a lot more money. And so it’s a win win across the board for business owners.

Got it. Okay. So we’ll probably loop back on a thought or two there, but let’s bring the podcasting aspect into this because of course, we’re speaking to people here who are using podcast as a marketing tool. So is that enough on its own people who are considering or already doing a podcast, they want to, to drive clients and sales for their business is just a podcast enough, or.

Are all the things that you just mentioned required because that’s another thing we hear is you don’t have to do everything, but then other people will tell you, well, you have to do email, you have to do this, you need to do this. And that’s what leads to that confusion and frustration. So let’s dive into podcasting,

how does this fit into someone’s marketing plan?

I think that podcasting is super beneficial for building [00:07:00] relationship with an audience of people who are interested in the types of products or services that you provide. A podcast alone Isn’t enough, right? Because somebody can’t, like, interact with your audio podcast. They need somewhere to go to take that next step.

And so that’s where this ecosystem build out starts to come into play. But the way that I encourage everyone to think about it is, it’s Great. Maybe podcasting is your primary way of driving clients to your business. Just think about the logical steps that someone would take. So they would go from your podcast to your website.

So make sure that your website is solid from there. How are they going to purchase from you? Do they? Uh, have the ability to do that right there on your website. Do they need to book a call? And that process really explains and creates that strategy for you. You don’t really need to sit and think about like these crazy cookie ways to get people into your system.

Just think about if I were my own client. What would I be [00:08:00] doing? Or if you’re interacting with a business like yours, take note of the steps that you’re taking to answer your own questions that you have and make sure that you’re building that into your flow. So podcasting is great, but make sure that you have a way for someone to actually become a customer at the end of the day.

And then you can build additional channels from there.

It can definitely feel overwhelming when we think about all the different things that need to be involved. Do you get that with clients who come to you? They’re not knowing where to start or how to put all the pieces in place? Maybe they get frustrated that it’s, they’re not getting results after a couple of months. What does that situation look like? Are we normal to be feeling that way?

Yeah, 100%. And I think it’s especially relevant when we’re talking about podcasting too. I was just on a call with an entrepreneur a few weeks ago, and he wanted a gut check on his podcast that he had just launched. It was like 3 or 4 episodes in how it was doing. And if you’re only three or four episodes into a podcast, it’s not enough time to have let it fully run its course.

A lot [00:09:00] of things that you’re going to be launching have this exponential component, just like podcasts. So does YouTube social media, even paid ads have an exponential component. exponential improvement over time, where you’re starting out and the traction at first is very slow. But then as you learn and implement and test and see what’s really going to perform for your brand, you start to get those huge exponential gains.

And so I think it’s really common for people to feel overwhelmed, not only from the number of different marketing. Channels available to you as a business owner, but also how long they take to set up in that ambiguity component, I think is also just a huge point of frustration. And it has been for my clients as well.

And so, uh, I always tell people, you know, take a deep breath, take a step back and we’re going to do this one step at a time. And there’s a saying that’s like, Fast is slow and slow is fast. So even though it seems like it’s going to be a little bit more, [00:10:00] lengthy in the short run, you’re actually setting yourself up for those exponential gains and to really take advantage of everything that you’ve had set up in the long run.

Got it. And I assume this would be one benefit with working like someone like yourself or anyone who has expertise is it’s hard with all these moving parts. And you’re not necessarily that experience with them all as a, as an entrepreneur, you don’t really know how to do things with confidence and then track what’s even going on.

Like you might try to make this beautiful funnel with some follow up emails and a lead magnet, but then. I don’t know, people are coming to your website somehow through some ads you create, but then they don’t even sign up and you say, well, why aren’t you signing up? They click the ad, which said it was for this thing.

What’s going on? Or what, like what piece of this is broken? How do you address that type of thing? I presume you are well versed in tracking this type of stuff.

Yeah, a hundred percent. We always start with the data component. first. And so when I come in and I’m assessing a strategy for a business, I always say, you know, where are your dashboards? [00:11:00] What type of metrics are you tracking? Where is your single source of truth? And if a business doesn’t have that, we start with setting that up.

If you’re listening to this and you realize that you might not have this sort of solution set up for you. love Google Looker. if you have the business G suite, You have Looker by default. And if you’re a larger brand, there’s also an enterprise version of Looker. So it makes it really great because it can scale with you as your business grows.

And you don’t need complicated programming languages like some other data dashboards. Looker is very simple and straightforward. You could have someone on Fiverr help you with the setup and get on your way.

But we always start there and the things that you need to track differ for your business. But at the very least, you need to have website visitors, leads captured and sales generated, you know, depending on the type of service. If you’re a service based business that leads generated calls booked, those sorts of metrics will be helpful.

If you’re [00:12:00] an e commerce business, average transaction value, customer lifetime value, these things you’re going to want to have on your dashboards. And then I generally have a more zoomed in look into each channel, because. There’s so many different data points in each channel. If you have that high level view and you say, okay, leads generated are down today.

Let’s dive into why that is. And then you can open up and then you can kind of continue to zoom in there in your dashboards and see, oh, our views on our social posts are way down this week. And so maybe that is impacting this and then you can kind of QA and quality analysis and dive in from there.

That sounds very important. And okay. Google Looker. I’ve never heard of that. I’ve heard of some other things, but that sounds very useful. I know back when we started working with the business consultant, he was asking me these types of questions, like, what’s your conversion rate? And I’m just like, uh, uh, uh, well, I don’t know this month while we had two calls and it’s just, yeah, you really need that info if you’re going to make any decisions.

[00:13:00] So I really love this. You know, the idea of working with someone that knows what’s going on. So to loop back to podcasting a bit, how can we make sure that we are maximizing the effort of podcasting? What are you seeing, or perhaps even doing yourself to make sure that the effort we put into creating a podcast, we’re getting the highest ROI from that in a marketing perspective.

I think that one of the best things you can do is. Try to give genuine value to your listeners and the people who are engaging with your podcast. By creating that value, you’re building a trusting relationship so that when the time comes where that person is trying to purchase your product or service, you’re top of mind.

The second thing you need is a call to action or a way to get people Now from your podcast into your more tighter knit marketing ecosystem. And so this could look like testing different lead magnets and calls to action and different incentives to get someone from listening to your podcast to now taking an action [00:14:00] and giving you a piece of their contact information so that you can then continue to nurture and warm them up and get them prepped for the sale.

Yeah. Those two things are really what you need to maximize the effectiveness of your podcast. If you’re time strapped, just focus on leading with value because somebody who is really getting a lot out of the podcast and really connecting with you as a podcast host is And they’re ready to buy. They will go out of their way to try and find you and seek you out, online and make that purchase, but make it easy for all those people who are not that committed as your next step and build into that and improve your flows from there.

Great. Okay. So we’ve got podcasting on our radar here. I know you mentioned a couple of other things earlier, but if we were to break this down into some complete fundamentals of like, here is what you need to do first for your marketing strategy if you’ve got nothing. Let’s say podcasting is one of them.

What would be the absolute basics you say you have to start with?

[00:15:00] Yeah. Taking podcasts for an example, that super dialed in website, making sure that your messaging, your calls to action and everything are super clear and concise on your website, as well as. that addresses buyer objections, those doubts that people have, those questions they have before they make a purchase.

All of that should be on your website. And then beyond that, I do highly recommend an email list because you don’t know who’s listening to your podcast until they give you some contact information. And so by getting people on that list, you’re able to see who are the people that are actually even listening to my podcast and beyond that, you know, what do they care about?

How are we able to continue to build that relationship and turn them into a paying customer that all can happen automatically on your email list, which is why I love email. You can set up a welcome sequence. When someone joins, you can send an onboarding sequence. So abandoned cart sequence, and [00:16:00] you can really build out all of these automations that I don’t want to say set it and forget it because I always recommend improving, but if you wanted it to be set it and forget it for a while, it definitely can be.

And your entire email, uh, system can run on autopilot working for you to make those sales or encourage people to take that next step in your buying process.

That sounds great. Yeah. Okay. So let’s say we’ve got podcasts, we’ve got email would you add anything else in there? That’s mandatory. Like what you say, social media or digital ads.

I always recommend, especially for solopreneurs to focus on one channel and really take that as far as it can go before you branch out to other channels. Certainly you can have a presence on other channels, but I’d like you to think about it from this element of psychological safety. And so if somebody is interacting with your podcast, And you’re giving them a lot of value and they look you up on Instagram and you launched an Instagram eight months [00:17:00] ago, but you haven’t put a lot of work into it.

I’m speaking from experience. I did this. Um, and now they see that you have two followers on your, just using an example on your podcast, Instagram, they’re going to say, Ooh, maybe I’m the only one who’s finding value in this podcast. And it creates this moment of doubt in their mind, which.

inhibits that trust that you’ve been building over time with your podcast. So anytime you launch something new, be really intentional about it and make sure that you’re going to give it the time and the effort that it needs to grow fully into a successful channel for you. And if that’s not time right now, if you don’t have the time to do that, that’s fine.

Just own what you’re doing and take it as far as it can go. Once you have that grown, your team will naturally grow or your ability to launch other channels and have somebody set it up on autopilot grows. So there’s a lot of things that become available to you. Once you reach that spot in your business where now your podcast is bringing in clients [00:18:00] or sales on autopilot, it’s pretty dependable, you know, month over month.

Uh, your sales are slowly going up. then you can go ahead and launch your next channel.

Yeah. There’s nothing worse than clicking onto someone’s Instagram from their website and just seeing that they haven’t posted in six months. I just assume the business is shut down. It’s a very bad look a couple of things that I want to touch on there. You mentioned about your website, the various things there. we want to make sure that your copy is correct. It looks good. Or addressing buyer objections. Who is the type of person if you’re wondering, who do I find to kind of ask?

Is my website even good? Would it be someone like you or who would you recommend people go to for advice on that kind of thing?

Yeah, definitely somebody who is a marketing consultant can look and they have this broader perspective of what other sites are doing and what’s performing well for other companies in your niche. But this is something that you can do as well. If you are somebody who takes calls with prospects, and they have questions that they’re asking you during that call, and they’re coming up as buying objections.[00:19:00]

That’s a note to you that you can start messaging about these questions on your website. So of course, it’s great to have somebody expedite that process for you and say, you know, you have a product where people are going to have X, Y, and Z questions and you should message to that. But it’s also something that you as a solopreneur can do over time and just continue to test.

 Okay, so we talked about it. Some of the various strategies we could employ here, like a podcast, a mailing list you mentioned is important. I want to talk about the ads a little bit for those who it would apply to.

Now you mentioned earlier, the digital ads have an exponential result as well, just like anything. It’s not like you just run an ad and it’s the quickest way to get results overnight. Those take time as well. So. Since you’ve managed millions in spending on these ads, what is the current state? What would we need to know as smaller entrepreneurs in health and wellness when considering digital ads?

Do you even recommend it right now?

[00:20:00] I do. I, I pretty much recommend any channel that an entrepreneur is excited about because if you are excited, you are naturally curious. And that’s the thing that I really try to tap into that makes marketing very successful. If you’re curious and you have an appetite for testing and learning and growing, any channel can become successful for you.

Speaking about paid ads, specifically. When you launch ads, the number one thing that you need to know is what you mentioned, Joel, they are not an instant ticket to huge sales. They will take testing and improvement and iteration over time. And they might take a lot more work than you’re originally thinking when you’re setting out to run ads just. The ad management platforms alone, be it Meta business manager or Google ads manager. They’re very complicated and there’s a lot of settings and a lot of things that I see that solopreneurs do is they just kind of like throw all that out. And instead, what they do is start boosting [00:21:00] their social posts, which I’ve seen it work for one business.

I don’t want to say it doesn’t work, but when you’re throwing out business manager and all of that specialization and those tools, you really are almost shooting yourself in the foot for your performance because you have limited targeting. You have limited ability to manage your budgets and you have limited visibility, most importantly, into what’s performing well for your brand.

And so when you are setting out to create, An ad strategy. I’ll keep this short because there’s so many variables, but at the end of the day, you need to have a few audiences that you’re going after to see who resonates best with my message right now. You need to have a lot of creative more, ad creatives than you think you would need.

You need to be launching probably multiple new ad creatives each week. Uh, if you have a decent, you know, About 10, 000 a month ad budget. If you’re down in that 1, 000 a month, uh, and you’re just sort of starting out, maybe four [00:22:00] creatives a month could be okay for you, but you really need to be aggressively testing.

And then you also need to be testing copy and headlines. And so when I go into somebody’s account and they’re saying that their ads are not performing, usually they have four ads that haven’t been refreshed in the last six months. They’re running one headline and they’re running one bit of copy. And this is really the reason why a lot of people struggle when it comes to their ad account.

Meta gives you the opportunity to launch five pieces of copy and five headlines per creative. And so, Metta will optimize the budget based on what’s performing well. So you’re only setting yourself up for more learning and insight by giving Metta more information to work with. Test short copy, long copy, copy that is really bullet point, heavy copy, that’s more meaty.

Try to see what’s going to work best for your audience. And then with the creative, make sure that you’re testing [00:23:00] highly differentiated creative. This is the other thing that I see a lot of business owners, A pitfall that they fall into, which is they’ll run a graphic image with a blue background, and they’ll run a, the same graphic image with a green background.

And they’re like, I’m trying to test the background color or what color performs the best. And that’s not what you need to be doing right now. Huge brands that get up to like millions of dollars a month in ad spend that have really exhausted. Their testing might have a color testing strategy, but as somebody with even up to a million dollars a month, you need to be testing highly differentiated creative. So test a graphic ad test, a UGC, or a user generated content style ad that’s more native to the feed. And in between that test, maybe a, B roll style video where it’s just video and nobody’s face is showing and it’s got a voiceover.

Try testing very different things for your account because by doing that, you will learn so much and you will learn [00:24:00] what doesn’t work, but more importantly, you’ll learn what does work. Once you learn what does work, test it again. Okay, great. Was it the messaging that this person was saying in this video, or was it the fact that the person was being shown saying it and test the same message, but but widely differentiated creative.

So by having this hunger for knowledge, you will. You know, it’s going to be slow at first as you’re learning and testing what works, but then you’ll really unlock those growth gains. And I’ve seen that within, 2 to 3 months where some of my clients accounts, when I’m running their strategy, they’ll 3x their click through rate just by making sure that we’re testing a variety of calls to actions, messaging, copy, and creative.

Wow. So obviously very powerful. And there are pros and cons to all these methods. They’re going to be costs associated with everything. But am I correct to say that the ads method sounds like one of the most complex and perhaps costly of the other [00:25:00] things we talked about, like a podcast and a mailing list, like this sounds very dangerous for a DIY job without any help from a professional.

Am I wrong there?

I think that if you don’t have a testing strategy, it is incredibly dangerous for your brand, or if you put it in the hands of somebody who is not standing with you as a partner, which is what I see with a lot of agencies. In fact, I just spoke to a fitness trainer last week, and her agency hasn’t been able to get, Any return on her advertising investment, and they’ve actually been working for free for her for the last three months because they’ve done so poorly with their ads.

And that’s somebody she trusted so called experts to run these ads and they haven’t been performing for her. And so you need somebody who is standing with you as a partner in your ads management. Otherwise it can become incredibly dangerous. I think if you’re going to go on your own and do it, it can work, [00:26:00] but just make sure that you’re setting aside enough time to really test and learn and understand in your account.

Otherwise go for something like organic social, where of course a post costs you in time. Maybe you have to pay an editor for it, but compared to that same, uh, image or that same video being run as a paid ad, you’re paying even more now to learn. And so you need to really have the correct mindset and investment to make sure that you don’t get two months into this and say, okay, well, I’ve spent 5, 000 and it’s not performing and I’m just going to throw on the hat.

Because it takes 5 months to make an advertising account, really work for your brand and perform maybe in the way that you think it would, when you think running paid ads for a business.

That’s a very interesting thing you brought up about, uh, the, that example where someone’s working with professional, but not getting those results because we’re all, I I’m sure hesitant when hiring professionals, because [00:27:00] you try to do your best due diligence when getting someone to work with, but it just doesn’t always work out.

And maybe they’re great, but it just, in her case, wasn’t working. How, how do you know in those situations that it’s definitely the ads versus, let’s say, if their offer is not correct, that type of thing, how do we identify that this is in fact, an ad problem? At the beginning of the funnel.

Yeah. So something for her situation and specifically that tells me it’s an ad problem is because that agency actually did help her set up email flows and helped her refine some of the messaging on her website, which did improve conversion rates. And so when we look at that, we say, you know, of course, ads are one part of the greater ecosystem and your other parts need to support what you’re doing from an advertising perspective as well. If you’re not getting a return on your investment that you’re putting into your ads, they’re just not working flat out. And so things that you can do to adjust that is look at your click through rate when you are trying to get [00:28:00] somebody to move through from an ad to your website, the click through rate is going to be your number one success metric.

Once they get on your website, your conversion rate and what have you, of course, you’re You’re targeting from your ads will play a part in that, but we’re really looking at click through rate because conversion, right? There’s so many things that impact it on your website. Once they leave the ad, if your click through rates are below industry average or even at industry average, I would say your ads are probably underperforming and there’s a lot you can do to get them to perform better for you.

And That boils down to testing. If your agency is testing for new pieces of creative for you each month, and you are spending more than a thousand dollars a month on your ads, you’d need to be testing way more creative. And in fact, her agency was doing the color testing instead of like testing actually different pieces of creative.

So my advice to someone who is working with an agency Is that you are going to have to take a hands on role [00:29:00] in leading that strategy and that management. You are really just outsourcing the hands on the keyboard, setting up the ads. So don’t think that somebody who is working at an agency is really going to be that partner.

You need to be that advocate for yourself and your brand to make it work. And not just in her example. Almost every client that works with an agency, they’ll come in, they’ll get a little quick win for them. And then the agency becomes, lazy over time. They, they see the absolute bare minimum that they can do to keep your business each month.

And so you really need to be, you know, kind of like driving, like, what are we going to do next month? What are we testing now? What are we learning and really being that driving force behind your ads.

That’s a fantastic insight. Really, really good stuff. Let’s wrap up here with, I’ll give this as a broad question. So we’ll kind of back up to the book and the whole ecosystem and not really any specifics here, but let’s say someone is in the relatively, [00:30:00] like a first year of their online health and wellness business, they’ve been dabbling, maybe a podcast, maybe some social media, trying to start an email list.

What is a reasonable timeline? How, how soon should people be seeing results when they get things up and running? They start taking it seriously. Like how long of a runway do we need to kind of still have confidence that it’s going to work? You know, I guess that’s a very broad question, but a lot of people are concerned.

Like it’s been a few months, nothing is happening. What do we do there? How do we know if we’re even doing the right thing? How long does it realistically take most times

for

Yeah, it really depends on the type of product or service that you’re offering and the price point at which you’re offering it at. And I think a lot of people who are maybe charging a little bit more, they give it a few months and then they start discounting their services or their products until they’re like, Barely eking out a profit.

If at all, what I advise you to do instead is make sure that you’re [00:31:00] giving everything enough time to work. We mentioned that ads alone could take, you know, three, four, five, six months. And it’s the same with a podcast or with a new social media channel, which is why I advise to pick one and go all in on that, because now you are focused all of your effort on one way to acquire new customers beyond that, If it’s been a few months and you’re saying, you know, I haven’t had any sales and I’m really wondering if this is, an offer or product that’s enticing, try to give it away to somebody for free in exchange for a testimonial.

If you’re talking to a group of people and nobody in that group of qualified prospects wants what you’re offering for free, you need to adjust your offer. And that’s really how you know if this thing is going to work or not. When you’re starting out, if you’re not seeing any traction, really dive into the people that you’re trying to help and see if there’s anything you can do for free in exchange for that testimonial, to see if your offer is actually [00:32:00] something that people want to use or can use.

And if people accept it, then yes, then you can say at the end, you know, what would you pay for this? Or try to get a little bit more pricing knowledge at that point. But, I would strongly advise people to stop discounting until finally somebody bites and makes a sale because you’re trying to set your business up for longevity.

And so have these conversations, ask what that value is worth to that person, because it might be three or four times more than you originally were setting out to price it at. And then go and grow from there. I think that It’s, it’s very scary at first, if you’re not making sales or not making as many sales as you want, but just like everything else that we discussed today, there’s a lot that goes into creating a business that’s successful, including testing your product or offer and making sure that people are actually, uh, receptive to it.

Yeah, it’s always great to hear that from a pro because whether it is a podcast, which has [00:33:00] time and money associated with it, or digital ads saying, you know, you need to spend one or 2, 000 a month for six months and you’re not, you may not going to see much for that timeframe that can sound intimidating to entrepreneurs, but that’s just the way it is.

There’s no overnight success. So it takes time and costs in most cases.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, it’s Angela Frank of the growth directive, author of your marketing ecosystem and host of the growth pod. Such great insight, Angela. Thank you so much.

Joel, thanks for having me.